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Novick: Let Them Vote For Hillary in Denver

by: torridjoe

Tue Aug 12, 2008 at 11:07:42 AM PDT


Update, 8/14--from CNN via Kos, the Obama and Clinton camps have "agreed" to allow her name to be placed into nomination at the convention...although truthfully the normal procedure would have required it, so what this really means is that Obama has backed off any idea of trying to prevent it.

 

[posted on Steve's behalf--great to have the Candidate keep up his rep as the Commentator as well...]

Let Them Vote!

I wasn't Hillarious in the primaries. I was with Edwards (I know, I know), then Obama. But I can't for the life of me figure out why the Obama forces would think for a second that they shouldn't let  Hillary's name be placed in nomination, and let her delegates vote for her.

Pride may or may not be inherently a sin, but messing with someone's pride for no particular reason is definitely a sin. Some historians blame the rise of Hitler on the harsh terms of the Treaty of Versailles, at the end of WWI, which Germans found humiliating. Among other things, the treaty required Germany to take full responsibility for starting the war. My recollection from history classes is that that might not have been completely off base, but even if it was true, what was the point of requiring the Germans to sign on the dotted line? The lesson of history is clear: If we don't let the Hillaryites have their day in the sun, are we prepared to take responsibility when, twenty years from now, their tanks go marching into Prague?

Hillary's people worked hard. They won a mess of states. They won a lot of delegates. They'd like the country to see how well they did, at the Convention. They want to proudly cast their votes, raise the roof, hoot and holler. They do that, they feel good, then they get on board for Obama.

What's the problem? Do we think that, by avoiding a vote, we're going to make the American people think that Obama won all the primaries?  I kinda think they know he didn't. Keeping the Hillary delegates from voting strikes me as a lot like asking the losing team in a 4-3 National League Championship Series to forfeit its three victories to show 'solidarity' going into the World Series.

One of my fondest political memories is of Mo Udall's speech at the 1976 convention. Udall had been the leading progressive alternative to Carter. (Udall was blind in one eye, prompting The Village Voice to write an article with the cute headline, "In The Country of the Blind, the One-Eyed Man Is Not So Bad.")  

At the Convention, his name was placed in nomination, by Archibald Cox, no less. His 300 delegates voted for him. The demonstration as he began to speak was so loud and long that Udall began by saying: "If this goes on much longer, I might have to accept the nomination." But later he said: "yes, Jimmy, I'll be wearing one of your little green buttons." There was no harm done to Democratic unity. Carter left the Convention with a 30-point lead.

So c'mon, Barack, let them vote. It'll be fine. Let them vote, and then remember not to give any interviews to Playboy about lust in your heart.

torridjoe :: Novick: Let Them Vote For Hillary in Denver
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This is such a non-issue (0.00 / 0)
People voted for Dennis Kucinich of all things in 2004 and it didn't hurt Kerry any....

I agree with Steve, if it makes them feel better, wtf does anyone care, it's not like the vote will be televised anywhere but CSPAN anyways...

Polls are like crack, political activists know they're bad for them but they read them anyways-Me.


Setting a precedent (0.00 / 2)
The LAST thing the DNC/Campaign for Change/Obama campaign wants is to let delegates actually vote for the candidate to whom they've been pledged.  They NEED a nominee by unanimous acclamation to cement the facade of "party unity."  So forcing the image of unity is much better than substantive unity as far as the change campaign can see.

But wait - there's more!  What if a few years hence, YOU find yourself on the short side of the delegate aisle?  Who decides whether or not YOU get to vote for YOUR guy?  Keep in mind, had Edwards not been as ethically challenged as he apparently is, and had Hillary "won," the Obama delegates would be crying "foul."  Or not.  Because cutting Obama out of a roll call vote would be unacceptably racist.  Sexist?  Okay.  Racist.  Oh - no!  


Troll Much? (0.00 / 0)
I'd say that you were that guy from Presumptous Coma but his false logic is more seductive.

[ Parent ]
Its about respect. (1.50 / 2)
Here's the thing. Its all about respect.

Respect for the voters who believed she was the better candidate. In Oregon, Senator Clinton received over 40% of the democratic party vote. Nationwide, she received over 18 millon votes. As a national delegate for Senator Clinton here in Oregon's 1st Congressional District, I represent ten of thousands of Oregonians who voted for her. We honor them through this process.

Respect for the ground she broke by being the first credible female candidate for president. There are over 18 million new cracks in the glass ceiling and one day, because of Hillary, My daughter has a positive political role model to aspire to be like because of Senator Clinton's groundbreaking run.

Respect for the process. Why would there even be any reticence to place her name into nomination? As your Udall example clearly shows, there is clearly a precedent for placing her name into nomination.

Unity will not be lost through this action. In fact, it will be solidified.


i don't trust them (5.00 / 1)
perhaps the fact that so many Hillary supporters made noise for so long about how unfair the whole primary process was, how Obama benefited from a sexist media (which of course demonstrated not the slightest racist or anti-Islamic inclination to cause any harm to Obama), and now it's "o if we'd only know about Edwards."  can the Hillary supporters be trusted to give their candidate a big thank-you and let it go at that, or will they make one last, stupid protest at how they were wronged?

i would like to let her be on the ballot for one round, but given her campaign's track record, we have a serious trust issue here.


Trust them to do what? (0.00 / 0)
i would like to let her be on the ballot for one round

That's all there's gonna be.  On the first ballot, Obama will win the majority of votes - and it'll be over.

Obama supporters don't have to "trust" Hillary's supporters to do anything.  They've got the votes.

Let 'em vote.  Frankly, a little bit of suspense won't hurt the TV ratings.


[ Parent ]
The Clintons' goal is COUP - not unity. (0.00 / 0)
If Hillary thinks she'll have even a remote shot she and Bill will be all-out trying to turn every delegate, trash-talking Obama in their little whisper campaign, getting their supporters to make hundreds of calls hounding each delegate daily (which they are already doing, by the way)...

She should be focusing her energy instead on supporting Obama publicly and privately.  (Is Obama fit to be President?  Bill Clinton enthusiastically responds - well, the Constitution says that technically he is... )

After you read those memos in the Atlantic, it's clear.


[ Parent ]
Trust is not the issue here. (0.00 / 0)
There is a valid argument for changing the caucus system. Obama, to his credit, took advantage of the system and accumulated enough caucus states to beat Hillary. Are caucus states representative of the popular vote? No. So there is an argument for changing it to better represent the voters.

As far as the sexist media coverage, you should be sympathetic to that argument as Obama has had his share of biased coverage. What makes it different from what Senator Clinton encountered? Bias is bias. You should be outraged that she encountered it and defending her instead of attempting to invalidate it.

As far as the Edwards point, that view was only held by one former aide to Senator Clinton. The media, once again, skewered it around to sound as if that is how we all feel. Oh, and by the way, it probably is true. If Edwards had come clean prior to Iowa, Hillary would have picked up enough of his supporters where she would have likely won the state or at the minimum, would have been a very close second to Obama.

As far as the trust issue, that's your personal problem, not ours. Both Senator Clinton and Senator Obama have moved on. Why haven't you?

I personally attribute many of the negative attitudes toward Senator Clinton as subtle forms of sexism. Just like the subtle racism that clouds attitudes against Senator Obama. Fortunately, over 40% of the democratic voters in Oregon and over 18 millon voters nationwide based their voting decisions on competence and leadership. When you don't "trust" Senator Clinton, you are saying you don't trust the opinions of much of the voting public. So once again, its all about respect.


hmm, not sure about iowa (0.00 / 0)
nate silver at 538 showed pretty convincingly that as edwards started plummeting in the polls pre-iowa it was obama's who gained most.

but that's beside the point, i agree that hillary should present herself for nomination so this can play out and no one feels cheated. besides, it would be much more interesting than the usual wanking.


[ Parent ]
Change you can Xerox! (0.00 / 0)
No more big crowds and big fancy speeches!

I wouldn't have stayed in that church!

Denounce AND reject!

The clouds will part and choirs will sing!

John McCain is fit to be Commander in Chief - Barack just gave a speech!

Bittergate!  Elitist!

Florida vote is like the civil rights fight in Selma!

Let ALL voters be heard (even though I screwed them all over until I LOST on Super Tuesday)!

Meet me in Michigan!

Shame on you Barack Obama!

Jesse Jackson!

Bill Clinton came here and SLAMMED PORTLAND on his "rural Oregon" tour that ended in ...Portland.

------

She does NOT DESERVE respect at the Convention. Not after that crap.  She said or nominee if not fit to be President, fer chrissakes. It would be one thing if she ran an honorable, well-fought campaign...


"He's not a Muslim...as far as I know!" (0.00 / 0)
How could I forget that one!  That's one of Hillary's best slams!

[ Parent ]
Hillary slams MoveOn! (0.00 / 0)
"MoveOn.org endorsed [Barack Obama] -- which is like a gusher of money that never seems to slow down," the item quotes Clinton as saying (there's audio on the site).

Her campaign, she continues, had been less successful in caucuses because those gatherings bring out "the activist base of the Democratic Party... [T]hey are very driven by their view of our positions, and it's primarily national security and foreign policy that drives them. I don't agree with them. They know I don't agree with them. So they flood into these caucuses and dominate them and really intimidate people who actually show up to support me."

Eli Pariser, MoveOn's executive director, defended the base: "Senator Clinton's attack on our members is divisive at a time when Democrats will soon need to unify to beat Senator [John] McCain. MoveOn is 3.2 million reliable voters and volunteers who are an important part of any winning Democratic coalition in November. They deserve better than to be dismissed using Republican talking points."

http://latimesblogs.latimes.co...



[ Parent ]
Are you a McCain supporter? (0.00 / 0)
Because your "sore winner" antics are doing nothing to help take us to victory in the fall.

[ Parent ]
Facts are facts. (0.00 / 0)
Hillary ran a dirty campaign - now she wants her ass kissed?

No thanks.


[ Parent ]
No ass kissing needed (0.00 / 0)
Hate to break it to ya but voting for the candidate to whom you've been pledged has been going on at Democratic conventions since the late 1800's.  Candidates with FAR fewer than 1800 delegates had their names placed into nomination - Tsongas, Hart, Jackson, Kennedy, Brown...

This became an issue because the Messiah and Howie decided to go for broke and try to get Clinton to take her name off the ballot.  Why?  What are they afraid of?

They are clearly from the "There's no place like Unity...There's no place like Unity..." school of though.  Click your heels together three times and we're there?  

Regardless of your opinion of the candidate, people voted for Sen. Clinton.  People then voted for delegates to represent their votes in Denver.  When the Obama campaign and the DNC intentionally and systematically try to eliminate these Clinton delegates from voting as pledged, what does that say about a "unified" party?  

Candidates will always be flawed.  I was hoping the system wouldn't be.  But the boys in charge apparently don't see it that way.

 


[ Parent ]
New Politics... (0.00 / 0)
Of course Hillary's delegates should get to vote for her.

It's not as if they're all goddess-worshiping maenads (though a startling number of them seem to be); there are more than enough of them who are reasonable, rational people who won't let the vote or the demonstrations run completely amok.

The potentially disturbing part of this is the sense of Barack as a man who isn't secure and confident enough to allow some dissonance and discord in what will be his convention to run and rise from.



Bull. Barack has dealt supremely well (0.00 / 0)
with hecklers at his town halls.

He was gracious, charming and persuasive.

Jesus Christ.  This pretending we all don't know that this is really about is just so Dana Perino-esque.  This is about the Clintons' unchecked egos and feeling of entitlement.  And you try to turn it into a slam on Barack.  This is exactly the reason why what the Clintons are trying to pull is harmful to the party - they have even you spouting GOP talking points against Obama!  


[ Parent ]
I signed the Hillary petition (0.00 / 0)
I'm an Obama delegate. And yes, I believe that Hillary's name should be placed in nomination and her delegates should have a chance to vote for her.

So what if a few of the dead-enders among her supporters have colorful fantasies of a stealth nomination based on wholesale defections of superdelegates and even a few pledged Obama delegates? It isn't going to happen. He's going to be nominated on the first ballot and that will be that.

Let them vote. It's the American way.


bad news bears (0.00 / 0)
To quote the Houston Astros from Bad News Bears II: Breaking Training, I say "let the Kids Play."

And on a side note. I think the following comment is kind of thoughtless:

"Keep in mind, had Edwards not been as ethically challenged as he apparently is..."

If private infidelity means one is "ethically challenged" in public life, then you are assigning that label to Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Frank Roosevelt, Martin Luther King, JFK, probably RFK, and who knows how many others.

It's a bit reactionary


Private infidelity (0.00 / 0)
Sen. Edwards can sleep with whomever he pleases and apparently does.  Ethics comes into play when you and your spouse decide to defraud your supporters and keep them in the dark while asking them to "believe."  That kind of Ken Lay mentality is what I cannot and will not abide.

The first Clinton administration was hobbled by such crap for a last term that could have been extraordinary.  Again - do whatever you want in your private life.  Just don't make us pay for it.


[ Parent ]
not ethically challenged? (0.00 / 0)
Are you saying they were NOT ethically challenged to commit adultery? That's pretty stunning, IMO.

I think there is some accomodation for the times, wherein adultery was winked at for men of the 18th and even early 20th centuries--but King, JFK and RFK all suffer as stewards of moral turpitude, yes. It's disappointing to me that we've sunk so low as to excuse the very simple concept that if you pledge fidelity, it is wrong to break it.

Does it make Edwards a bad man? I wouldn't take it that far--but not only is it a slap in the face to a simply outstanding (and far more attractive IMO) woman like Elizabeth, it's pure stupidity for a man as smart as John Edwards to consider furtherance of his political career in the post-Clinton era and then fuck around on her. In my eyes Edwards is sadly greatly diminished.

I think McCain is a disgusting pig for what he did to his first wife, and the way he treats his current one. What would it say if I excused behavior by Edwards that was plenty insulting in its own right, just because he's a progressive D politically?


[ Parent ]
Jesus Christ (0.00 / 0)
Unfortunately neither Jesus nor Ghandi are available to run for office.

I don't think private infidelity equals an "ethically challenged" public servant.

What Edwards did was stupid and disappointing, but the act, in and of itself, shouldn't disqualify him from public office. The pool of competent candidates seems thin enough as it is, why make it even smaller?

I said it a long while ago and I'll say it again: Elizabeth Edwards should run for president.


[ Parent ]
I didn't say it should disqualify (0.00 / 0)
I didn't make it a disqualification for office; I said it's a sign of shaky personal ethics, and in my view makes me relieved he's not the nominee.

However, I have to reject the concept that because we see so few strong candidates, we should simply start embracing lesser ones to compensate.  


[ Parent ]
I agree with you, TJ (0.00 / 0)
I think that honoring one's commitments is a very important element of being an effective public servant. Many would agree that the fidelity pledged to one's significant other is the most important commitment in life. When that bond isn't respected, I have trouble keeping the faith for sound public decision-making.

And I had so much respect for him.


[ Parent ]

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