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AP Runs Story on Merkley Iraq Vote, "Attack" Decried

by: torridjoe

Sat Aug 25, 2007 at 13:05:24 PM PDT


The Associated Press' Brad Cain ran a story picked up this afternoon by the Oregonian, re-igniting what appears to have become the first issue of the Democratic primary: Jeff Merkley's Yes vote on a "trap resolution" written by the then-majority House GOP to push support for Bush's war in Iraq. It's unclear who initiated the interview, but Merkley's primary opponent Steve Novick extended remarks made after state Republicans tried to make the vote an issue of flip-flopping support. We pick up the reportage there, on the jump...

{more}

torridjoe :: AP Runs Story on Merkley Iraq Vote, "Attack" Decried
Novick hasn't yet raised the issue of Merkley's Iraq resolution vote in his campaign appearances. But with Democrats at the national level backing Merkley instead of Novick, the lesser-known candidate sees the resolution as something that can win Democratic voters to his side.

"It is coming up as an issue," Novick said in an interview with The Associated Press in which he made it clear he plans to talk about the House resolution in the campaign's coming months.

"I think there will be a lot of Democrats who will want to vote for someone who loudly, proudly and at every opportunity expressed his opposition to the war," said Novick.

Merkley's campaign said it would have no direct comment on Novick's assertions about Merkley's vote on the House resolution.

"Jeff Merkley knows that the best way to help Gordon Smith get re-elected is for Democrats to attack each other," Merkley spokesman Jon Isaacs said.

It's getting a little Pavlovian at the new Merkley digs, almost. Say anything about Jeff that isn't explicitly positive, and out come the "attack" charges. What constitutes negativity, and where does its avoidance become a bar on distinguishing two good candidates? Based on the ruminations of the pundits Cain sought out, the CW is that Novick can't win unless he strikes out against Merkley and lowers his theoretical well of favorability.

Look again at what Steve says that appears to have brought the click-whirr response from Isaacs:

"I think there will be a lot of Democrats who will want to vote for someone who loudly, proudly and at every opportunity expressed his opposition to the war,"

The reaction suggests that not only is pointing out potential deficiencies in Merkley's record not OK, but highlighting positive traits about Novick is out--if by comparison they imply Merkley comes up short.

More Steve:

Novick argued that he himself never would have voted for the 2003 resolution acknowledging Bush's "courage" in pursuing the Iraq war. He also noted that five Oregon House Democrats voted against the resolution that day, despite the pro-war sentiment in the country at the time.

"I think voters respect people who are willing to stand up for their principles, even when doing that is politically difficult," said Novick, who strongly opposed the war from the outset and marched in several anti-war demonstrations.

"A lot of Democratic voters have been demoralized for years because they feel their leaders have missed opportunities along the way to take a strong stand against the war," he said.


The five Democrats who voted against the resolution in 2003 pose a little problem for Jeff. Put aside the nonsense the GOP is trying to push; Merkley was obviously against the war then as now. But where Novick is making the distinction is in how Democrats respond to that nonsense. The trap votes that the Republicans keep throwing out whether they're in the majority or minority are designed to frame the discussion on their terms. Democrats validate those terms when they vote safely instead of making the tough political stand .

The Iraq vote was not a vote to "support the troops;" it was a baiting tactic to get Democrats on the record for the whole shitbag we all now hold. And instead of thinking "I don't want to be seen as not supporting the war," Novick's point is that the proper response is "This bill is a bullshit bill, and you don't vote Yes on bullshit, even if there's a lollipop hidden in the manure." So far, Merkley has only responded to the Republican argument; if he intends to treat the more salient argument as an attack, will he leave some voters wondering how they should view him when their questions turn "to the bill," as they say?

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Why start the campaign with this? (5.00 / 2)
I don't believe even Novick thinks this resolution means anything, given that he only speaks of it in terms of what others may think.  ("I think there will be a lot of Democrats who," "A lot of Democratic voters ... feel," and the passive, "It is coming up as an issue.")

This isn't even a policy disagreement.  To the extent that it's anything, it seems to be an example of one candidate hoping to paint the other as inconsistent and weak in the minds of the voters.

By this logic, it would seem Merkley could fairly call Novick someone who does not loudly, proudly, and at every opportunity express his support for the troops, and Novick would have to accomodate the assertion that Gordon Smith opposes the war.  Gordon Smith's votes "against the war" are certainly far more significant than a "Do you love the troops and Bush or hate the troops and Bush?" resolution.


Agreed (0.00 / 0)
This is edging toward self-interested opportunism IMNSHO.

cheers,

Mitch Gore


[ Parent ]
what votes? (0.00 / 0)
What votes has Smith actually made against the war?

[ Parent ]
Irony Quotes (0.00 / 0)
He made votes "against the war," not against the war.  The term is to be read with the same inflection as is reserved for the term "compassionate conservative."

[ Parent ]
But TJ, that resolution explicitly states it was (0.00 / 0)
and had Merkley voted for it, the GOP would have been pointing out the verbatim language which states that and that Merkley voted for this. We all know it was a trap vote, and that is why it is somewhat opportunistic for Novick to unwittingly playing a part in the media narrative the GOP is pushing in this trap.

From Novick's statements he says he would not have voted for it. Good for him. I wouldn't have voted for it either but then I am not looking to run state-wide for the Senate unlike Novick and Merkley and thus faced with the GOP pushing the language Novick voted against.

"Novick voted against supporting the troops" and they would have had the exact language and his recorded vote to point to. We can all agree it was and is a GOP trap, but I posit it was the better vote to vote yes on that and say you are only voting for it on because of that explicit phrase, than vote no and getting attacked for voting against the troops. I find it troubling that Novick is participating in this media trap for his own campaign ends and not calling out the media about the fraudulent nature of the entire fabricated "issue" of the vote.

cheers,

Mitch Gore


no way (5.00 / 1)
They're going to attack you NO MATTER what. All you do to go along with what they want is validate the entire fraudulent process.

LET THEM claim he's against the troops. Is their attack on Merkley for being FOR the war working? No. Will it work? No. And neither would "Jeff Merkley voted against the troops." Being afraid of that kind of nonsense tactic is what has to stop.

Look at Clinton recently--we have to be strong, otherwise they'll attack us for being weak. How about confronting the absurdity of that claim instead of playing into the false framing?


[ Parent ]
Yes way (0.00 / 0)
Novick is indirectly validate their fraudulent argument, instead of doing the legitimate thing in calling them on their illegitimate argument. Novick's position is oportunistic.

cheers,

Mitch Gore


[ Parent ]
BTW it isn't about being "afraid" (0.00 / 0)
so please stow that shit. It is about the fact it is a fraudulent issue and vote which was crap and you and Steve both know it. To even accept it as a legitimate  one and by trying to draw a distinction between Novick and Merkley over it instead of calling it fraudulent crap and a trap vote is the problem I have at what Novick is doing. Do you think the vote was a fraudulent GOP trap? Yes. Do I? Yes. does Novick? I would hope so, but so far in the media narrative he legitimizes it instead of calling it a fraudulent trap vote, and instead uses it to try and distinguish himself form Merkely over it.

cheers,

Mitch Gore


[ Parent ]
you've got it exactly backwards (5.00 / 1)
the game is "Vote for our stupid resolution or we'll say you don't support the troops." Steve is rejecting that game, saying you don't even participate in that kind of nonsense. It's NOT a legitimate vote--so why did Jeff treat it like one? You don't vote Yes on something that's illegitimate.

Once again--it is not an issue whether Jeff is for or against the war. The issue is how Jeff responds to GOP bullshit. Steve doesn't think voting Yes is the way.


[ Parent ]
Sorry TJ you are wrong (0.00 / 0)
Novick said he would not have voted yes on the resolution. This was in the earlier piece. So Novick IS legitimizing this bullshit fraudulent issue.

How would Novick have responded to this bullshit if he was Speaker of the House? He would have voted no and been taken to task over the same fraudulent vote only going the other direction with Novick doesn't support the troops".

But would Merekly be legitimizing that GOP fraudulent "issue" in the here and now in the media by saying "I would have voted for the resolution"...? I don't know. But we do see Steve doing that against Merkely and its bullshit.

cheers,

Mitch Gore


[ Parent ]
Novick endorsed participation in the vote. (0.00 / 0)
Novick is not saying, "don't even participate in that kind of nonsense."  There is no call in this article for abstaining from the vote.  On the contrary, Novick endorsed the "no" voters, pointing to them as a superior contrast to Merkley.  He also portrayed the resolution as an opportunity to express "opposition to the war" and to "take a strong stand against the war," not as illegitimate.

[ Parent ]
you can't abstain (0.00 / 0)
You MUST vote Yes or No. So your only choice in situations of bad bills--just like bad initiatives from the citizenry--is to vote No.


[ Parent ]
Let me rephrase: (0.00 / 0)
It is entirely possible not to participate.  Just walk outside the bar and don't vote.

Novick is quite careful not to call this bill illegitimate, bogus, or any such thing.  That would be counterproductive to the impression that he (and the GOP) are trying to keep alive: that voting one way or another makes a difference.  As though the "duh" position for a Democrat is that it's more important to boo the president than to cheer the troops (God, is that sickening to write), or that everyone knows that "nay" is really derived from Old Norse for "I didn't participate here."


[ Parent ]
you have to vote (0.00 / 0)
you can't just leave. You must vote on every bill, unless you are specifically excused. And you can't be excused because you don't want to vote.

It's baffling that the commentary seems to agree with the GOP frame, that "supporting the troops" was a sincere and meaningful gesture as opposed to a crass attempt to trap Democrats into backing a dumbass war by a dumbass President. And you simply can't vote "Yes, I don't support this stupid bill."


[ Parent ]
I know it's disobedient, (0.00 / 0)
but you either participate or you don't.  A "no" vote isn't a lack of participation.

And if the "support the troops" part of the resolution is meaningless, so is the "support the President" part, no?  The entire thing is completely meaningless.  Given that there is no meaning to the vote, why are you all over Merkley (and I suppose Ackerman, Avakian, Barker, Barnhart, Bates, Bayer, Hansen, Hass, Hopson, Hunt, Johnson, Kafoury, Macpherson, March, Monnes Anderson, Prozanski, Schaufler, Tomei, Verger and Wirth) for voting the way that makes them laugh at their critics ("You love Bush!") rather than want to curse at them ("You hate troops!")?


[ Parent ]
Which vote makes the vote illegitimate? (0.00 / 0)
Also, I think you're importing a nonexistent inherent meaning upon the word "yes" when you say, "You don't vote Yes on something that's illegitimate."  If the same false dilemma resolution were simply worded inversely, a "no" vote would idolize the president and a "yes" vote would oppose the war.  Would you now have to vote for the president so as not to legitimize the vote with the word "yes?"

The fact is, a vote one way no more legitimizes or delegitimizes the vote than a vote the other way.


[ Parent ]
Or to put it more succinctly: (0.00 / 0)
If you claim it makes a difference to vote one way or the other, you are legitimizing the vote.

[ Parent ]
One way or another (0.00 / 0)
All you have to do is use the "floor speech" you were pushing so hard just yesterday to explain your NO vote.

Why do you believe it is OK to explain a YES vote with a floor speech, but you seem to be rejecting here the idea of a NO vote explained by a floor speech.

Your inconsistency betrays the weakness of your position, James.

Vote no, and explain that you don't want to legitimize what Mitch called "a fraudulent issue and vote which was crap." Call it crap then, don't vote for it for God's sake.


[ Parent ]
If you're talking to me, (0.00 / 0)
then you're talking to the wrong person.  I do not "believe it is OK to explain a YES vote with a floor speech, but ... seem to be rejecting here the idea of a NO vote explained by a floor speech."  I think they're both perfectly valid, understandable, bad options of having to vote a way that is not self-explanatory, and having to then deliver a floor speech to clear up the confusion.  I don't particularly care which end of the stick they chose to fight with.

[ Parent ]
Pay attention, James (0.00 / 0)
Well, a no vote accompanied by a speech specifically pointing out that the resolution was not a legitimate show of support for the troops would be a way to vote on the resolution without legitimizing it. Something you said was impossible. I'm saying the floor speech you were pushing so hard earlier in this thread (because your man used it to try and explain away his yes vote) is a way to vote on the resolution without legitimizing it. You vote NO and then say it's because you don't think it's legitimate.' That would be away to vote on it without giving it credibility. Something you said was impossible. Clearly that's not the case.

Again, please try and follow along, James. At least try and follow your own arguments. because you most cerainly were making that point, whether you realize it or not.


[ Parent ]
This is low. (0.00 / 0)
Pat, condescension is a losing argument.  Also, Merkley is not my guy.  I'm defending him because I find this criticism weak and counterproductive.

[ Parent ]
Even more succincter (0.00 / 0)
No matter how many clever twists of logic you make or debate points you score, James, the bottom line is that you are trying to defend this position:

The resolution was an illegitimate, cynical trap that shouldn't be taken seriously, and your man Merkley voted for it.

Good luck with that.


[ Parent ]
No need for contempt, not toward me nor toward Merkley (4.00 / 1)
Again, Merkley's not my man.  I just find this whole argument to be a weak one.  Merkley clearly opposed the war the entire time, and this vote did nothing to affect that.  It also had no effect on the war.  All the Dems who voted either way had reasonable arguments, and I would just as quickly defend another candidate if they had voted no and their loyalty to the troops was questioned.

[ Parent ]
and it does address the framing (0.00 / 0)
That's the whole point--Steve is addressing the stupidity of the whole process, and avoiding that by simply standing up for what you believe in and rejecting their games.

For a guy who would have rejected their games then, (0.00 / 0)
he sure seems to be playing along now.

[ Parent ]
how so? (0.00 / 0)
How is he playing along with GOP games? He's saying the proper response is to reject the whole game they're trying to play.

The GOP's game is that Merkley is for the war. It's stupid. Why even pretend that's a game?


[ Parent ]
The Game (5.00 / 1)
The game the GOP is playing is the false dilemma: If you oppose X, you oppose Y; if you support X, you support Y.  Presumably Merkley laughs at being accused of being a Bush-worshipper, and presumably he doesn't laugh at being accused of not supporting the troops; perhaps he voted accordingly.  Whatever the logic, and whichever his choice, it was a phony vote.

If Novick doesn't believe Merkley should be criticized for not supporting the troops if he had voted no, why is he criticizing Merkley for not speaking out against the war by voting yes?  That's what I mean by Novick playing along.


[ Parent ]
Exactly (0.00 / 0)
And that is what is troubling and opportunistic about what Steve is doing. That TJ thinks this is a valid topic for Steve to try and draw a distinction against Merkley is bullshit frankly.

cheers,

Mitch Gore


[ Parent ]
he's not doing that (0.00 / 0)
He's saying the vote is entirely illegitimate from the start. The vote should have had nothing to do with speaking out against the war--it should have been a reflection of the illegitimacy of the question. The vote is not No, I don't support the troops; it's No, your bill is stupid and not an honest bill. It's like saying you're waiting for the Petraeus report, as if it will mean something or be honestly put together. It simply feeds a dishonest frame.

[ Parent ]
Where is he saying that TJ? (0.00 / 0)
He has given this GOP bullshit legitimacy by his early comments on it instead of calling it fraudulent when presented with the opportunity. I don't see Steve doing what you claim he is. Just the opposite. I see him being passive-aggressive on this to try and draw a difference with Merkely... and I think it is a crap move.

cheers,

Mitch Gore


[ Parent ]
he's done no such thing (0.00 / 0)
the comments expose the GOP as pushing bullshit in a trap--and that he wouldn't fall into the same trap by worring whether Republicans might suggest he doesn't "support the troops."

Steve is saying he wouldn't have participated in their games by worrying about how or when the GOP attacks. Who cares?


[ Parent ]
Let's pick a thread. (0.00 / 0)
I choose the one above.

[ Parent ]
I agree with lestat (0.00 / 0)
that Novick can't have it both ways.  Either a 'yes' or 'no' vote means something on a non-binding resolution from the state to the feds or it doesn't.

I tend to think the latter is more persuasive.

|beaver boundary: place, politics and power in oregon|


It's probably just me, but ... (5.00 / 1)
... I see little difference between Bush's signing statements and Merkley's vote on that POS. His subsequent statement that he voted for the non-binding resolution 'to support the troops' but disagreed with the rest of the resolution is exactly what I'm tired of. On the national level, the Senate and Congressional Dems have been doing this kind of rationalization on way too many issues. When we allow our elected representatives to parse their votes we get what we deserve.
And sure, the Republicans will attempt to make this into a case of Novick attacking Merkley and so, apparently, will a lot of Merkley's supporters. This isn't really about Merkley, it's about how the Rethugs framed the argument and how a lot of Dems were disinclined to call them on it at the time. Politics sucks. 

bless you (0.00 / 0)
Someone else besides Reinhard!

[ Parent ]
Are you familiar with the legislative branch? (4.00 / 1)
Voting on flawed bills is par for the course in the legisphere.  So is making a floor speech to make your position clear.  This isn't Clintonesqe, nor is it Bushy.  It's how legislating is done.  Yes, the bill said Bush was courageous.  Yes, the preamble was bad.  But preambles don't even count on bills, let alone on non-binding resolutions.  And since Merkley expressed his opposition to the war before, during, and after the vote, there's no chance that any reasonable person not on the Novick mailing list will think that Merkley ever supported the war.  Even TJ doesn't.  Even Reinhard doesn't.  So there was no downfall.  It was all rhetoric, and so was the controversy.

Novick doesn't need to prove he's to the left of Merkley to win.  He needs to prove he's credible.  That's his big challenge right now.  And trying to make something out of HR2 did not help him demonstrate credibility.  He got bad campaign advice.


[ Parent ]
you flatter the bill (4.00 / 1)
by calling it "flawed." That suggests it was a real bill, with just some minor parts that were less than productive. It wasn't. It was a piece of shit, with a hunk of tasty-looking chum and a big stinky love note to the President attached.

Merkley's response yesterday confirms he treated the bill seriously, as something to regard on its own merits. That was a mistake.


[ Parent ]
I guess I agree? (0.00 / 0)
I also would have advised Merkley to highlight the ridiculousness of the bill.  I know I don't take it particularly seriously.

[ Parent ]

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