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Merkley: No on Marriage, Income Equality

by: torridjoe

Thu Dec 13, 2007 at 07:45:00 AM PST


I suppose if he can't find the time to debate, the citizens will have to ask him the questions directly. Seems one of them did:

Last night I ran into Jeff Merkley at an event, and I was very pleased to be able to get a few minutes of his uninterrupted attention so I could ask him about two issues that I care a lot about: (a) marriage equality, and (b) reform of the Internal Revenue Code to tax capital gains at the same rate as wages.

...

But after I told him I was a Novick supporter and asked him my two yes-or-no questions, what happened next was interesting. He locked those big brown puppylike eyes onto mine (also brown, somewhat smaller and less puppylike) and proceeded to tell me why in his view "those are not 'yes or no' issues."

They're not? OK, I'm piqued. Why not?

{Merkley answers, via diarist Portlandia

 

torridjoe :: Merkley: No on Marriage, Income Equality

OK, yes I know I'm excerpting a diary that appears only a few slots below this one on the front page. But Portlandia's account of the conversation with Merkley, if accurate, raises some notable distinctions between Merkley's answers and Novick's previously stated positions. And in the absence of many opportunities to hear Merkley do standup on policy questions, this will have to be how we learn about some of the more attuned nuances of his positions. So for those who didn't read the diary or want the give and take to review with me, here it is:

I said, well, I think it's outrageous and unfair that I can be "married" because my spouse is a man, but some of my friends can never be "married" just because of the gender of the person they love.

He said [and I apologize for the stream-of-consciousness nature of this synopsis --  I was focusing really hard, trying to engage him and at the same time to remember everything important that he said] that maybe the government shouldn't be in the marriage business at all - that marriage should just be a sacrament, "a covenant with God" - let everyone have a civil union - each state's CUs and domestic partnerships should be recognized nationwide - he does advocate repeal of DOMA [5 points for THAT!] -  due to M36 we can't have marriage equality in Oregon anyway, so we should just focus on getting our DPs recognized nationally.

I reminded him that there are all kinds of federal benefits, property rights, etc. that flow only from Federally recognized "marriage." But he wouldn't (or couldn't) go there.

Now, as a principle of good government and the state's licensing of free association, Merkley's position has merits. I certainly have considered the same thing--wouldn't it just be cleaner to have government offer the benefits to all pairs as civil unions, and let God sort out the rest? 

But that's really an abstraction in political theory. It's all well and good to to break down the articles of marriage into theological and governmental realms, and try to assign them their proper duties, but this is meaningless to the social institution of marriage--one which outlasts both state and sacred associations.

Marriage is not departing the scene as a term for coupled cohabitation anytime soon, regardles of the spin we put on it. It is essentially political correctness to do otherwise; we determine that calling it marriage is offensive because we don't let the gays do it, so we call it something else lest anyone think we caved on letting them hook up in the first place. It's bureaucratically parsimonious, but disruptive and frankly insulting on a human level.

As I have said elsewhere, I'm pretty happy with the institution of marriage. People from Henry VIII to Britney Spears and Liz Taylor have tried to mess with it but it's outlasting all of them. I don't see the need to get rid of it, and I bet almost everyone who votes against gay marriage wants to see it last forever as well. I just want the county registrar to start saying Yes to my gay friends, instead of No. That's the human goal.

Even better, as policy it is only the will of the majority away. While it was stopped by judicial fiat, Multnomah's commissioners proved that the right to same-sex marriage can flow like water if only the tap is properly opened. And the only thing that's been disrupted in Massachusetts was the sidewalk traffic and parking around the county courthouses for a few weeks. 

So not only is it the better moral policy, it's also by far more easily implemented than a national de-certification of marriage. (And if not that then what, grandfathered marriages? Talk about two-class systems!) The bottom line here is that Merkley was given an opportunity to declare--as a number of politicians and certainly millions of Americans have done--that he supports same-sex marriage licenses, and demurred. Steve Novick supports same-sex marriage:

The right of two people who are committed to each other to marry. I realize that I disagree with many Oregon voters on this issue, and that taking this position just might cost me the election. But I cannot accept the state tell a loving, committed same-sex couple, “you have no right to get married.” The Declaration of Independence says that we all have the right to “the pursuit of happiness.” I believe that to be true to that principle, we need marriage equality.

That's my favorite one on the issues page. Pure Steve.

Of course, all that said, gay marriage is not likely to be high on the primary agenda, much less the general. Rights groups get that if the election simply is free of hate amendments on the ballot, it's a good election, so I don't see them complaining too loudly (although I bet they'll notice who's showing courage and who is hedging his bets like a...a politician.)

What SHOULD be high on the agenda, and which is a top issue for my favorite candidate John Edwards, is income inequality. Portlandia again:

On tax rate reform, he was a little more specific (but only a little) and somewhat crisper. He told me he is comfortable with "a reasonable difference" between the tax rates for wages and the rates for capital gains, because it is important for investors to buy and sell and keep investing.

I told him that my understanding is that when President Kennedy was elected the marginal tax rate on the highest incomes was an astonishing 91%, and even then people still invested and tried to make money, so it seems to me that there is little risk that equalizing the wage and investment tax rates (in the 25%-35% range, most likely) would create a drag on investment now.

He brought up the hedge fund managers' accounting trick (repackaging fees as "capital gains") for a moment but I said that wasn't what I was getting at. Back on wages vs. authentic capital gains, he reiterated that he is OK with "a reasonable difference" in the applicable marginal tax rates. I asked him if he thought the current difference was reasonable. He didn't want to say.

On this one Merkley hedges on his details, but he does manage to take a definable position on income tax equality: he's for some level of inequality on principle, without saying how much is too much, or whether it's too much right now. That again puts him at fairly clear odds with Novick, and with the label of "progressive" on the issue. Let's review the NovickforSenate issues page again:

Today, rich people who make their money buying and selling stock pay a lower tax rate than people who have actual jobs. If Warren Buffett makes an extra $5,000 on a stock deal, he pays a lower tax rate than a firefighter / nurse couple would pay if one of them got a $5,000 raise. Buffett himself thinks that's crazy. So do I.

When Senator Wyden asked me for ideas on how to reform the tax system, I told him: "Stop discriminating against income from work in favor of income from wealth." He has introduced a bill to do exactly that. Congressman DeFazio also supports that principle.

In the Senate, I'd work with them both to pass that idea into law. The simple step of taxing income from wealth at the same rate as income from wages would both help balance the budget and fight inequality. Most regular people make little or no money buying and selling stock - but for the richest people in America, most of their money comes from stock sales and other so-called "capital gains."

What? It's not just that hook-waving irritant who thinks income equality is a good idea? Radicals like Wyden and DeFazio are actually on board as well? Wait a minute--if we send Jeff Merkley to the Senate, is he going to cancel out Wyden on tax fairness? Oh, the rueful irony!

I wonder if you've been on the fence so far because you believed Novick and Merkley to be virtually identical on the issues. Reading this, maybe you've had the same kind of epiphany as Portlandia, who we'll let close this epic (but I think important) review of the issues:

Everyone says that Merkley and Novick are almost indistinguishable on the issues. I've said things like that in the past myself. Well, maybe I was wrong. Maybe they're not. Maybe I was giving Jeff Merkley a little too much credit for his reputation as a "strong progressive." Because at least on two issues that matter a lot to me, I see significant daylight between them, and in both instances, Steve Novick's position is the crisper and more progressive of the two. [emph orig]

 

 

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marriage is a sacrament, not a legal contract (0.00 / 0)
Merkley is right on this one, and his suggestion is a lot of the needed solution.

we need a separation of church & state when it comes to marriage.  it's ridiculous that ministers, priests, etc perform a civil ceremony: "By the authority vested in me by the State of Oregon..." or however exactly it goes.  that should a function performed by a civil servant.  all the rights, privileges, etc should be vested in that contractual agreement -- a civil union.  as a legal institution, CU's would convey equality on all such relationships; orientation would be irrelevant.  and CU's would be recognized across all states.

then anyone who wanted to join in Holy Matrimony -- or not -- would be free to do so.  one church could marry gays, another could refuse; it would have nothing to do with the public sector.  this is something religious people should be behind easily: they really want the govt telling them how to run their sacraments?  

marriage needs to be taken out of the purvue of govt and placed in the hands of -- whoever.  the Catholic Church, the 24-Hour Church of Elvis, it wouldn't matter.  because the part we care about in the public sector would not be marriage: it would be the same kind of legal structure we use for the rest of life.  kudos for Merkley for getting this one right.


philosophical concerns vs. achievable public policy (0.00 / 0)
It is not realistic to expect people to give up the idea of "marriage" just because they are of different faiths, agnostic, atheists, or for some other reason they cannot or will not have a church wedding. Civil marriage is still marriage. I had one of those and I am happy to consider myself married. I would not appreciate any implication that my life partnership was somehow less than someone else's, because they had a church's blessing and I don't.

The problem isn't the involvement of the churches in the ceremony itself. The problem is the involvement of churches in the forming of public policy around civil marriage to exclude those whom some of the mainstream churches disapprove of.


[ Parent ]
right answer to the wrong Q (0.00 / 0)
the question was not whether marriage is appropriately government business.  It was whether same-sex couples should be ale to get married. His refusal to even address the question is as good as a no for me.

[ Parent ]
I would simply say: if it's not a YES, it's a NO (0.00 / 0)
He can rationalize and waffle all he likes, but ultimately if the answer isn't YES, it's NO.

[ Parent ]
its not that black and white (0.00 / 0)
Is marriage equality better than nothing, yes. Is it the best solution, no.  It forces people in LGT relationships to conform to an age old sexist and homophobic structure.  Redefine what is deemed a healthy relationship away from heterosexist stereotypes.

Check out my Oregon politics blog at Forward Oregon

[ Parent ]
I agree (0.00 / 0)
"Redefine what is deemed a healthy relationship away from heterosexist stereotypes."

Absolutely--by embracing a more inclusive view of marriage as healthy relationship. Pretty much every possible type of marriage has been sanctioned by some civilization at some point, however, so if the stereotypes are currently heterosexist that's because we have short collective memories.

You can get to relational equality one of two ways: add more people to marriage, or take it away from everybody. You can only get to marriage equality, however, by adding more people to marriage. Notice how there's only one option that involves removing a dominant social artifact from 95% of the population...and that's the best choice?

Don't take away rights, add them.

Face it, man. The most progressive position on same sex marriage is to be, y'know, for it. That ain't Merkley, looks like; it's Novick.  


[ Parent ]
No your are disagreeing with me (0.00 / 0)
Should I send you an audio recording since you still haven't learned to read?

Don't take away rights, add them.

AGAIN, I GRANDFATHER ALL CURRENT MARRIAGES IN MY PLAN OF CIVIL UNIONS FOR EVERYONE, NO RIGHTS TAKEN AWAY FROM ANYONE.

To use the race analogy, you want to legalize inclusion at the country club but do nothing to change the racism and classism at the country club itself. I eradicate the racism and classism within the club.

Your solution is half assed. Mine is truly progressive.

Check out my Oregon politics blog at Forward Oregon


[ Parent ]
that's even dumbed (0.00 / 0)
"AGAIN, I GRANDFATHER ALL CURRENT MARRIAGES IN MY PLAN OF CIVIL UNIONS FOR EVERYONE, NO RIGHTS TAKEN AWAY FROM ANYONE."

You're taking them away from people who are not currently married but want to be, genius. The right exists to be married. Whether they are married or not, they lose that right when marriage ceases to be recognized.

And on a practical level it's beyond absurd. So some people will be married and some won't? Genius.

Gays can't marry, let them. End of problem.  


[ Parent ]
no it isn't (0.00 / 0)
People can be married if they want to be. If thats the case go get someone who to say that you are married. Whats hard about that?

Further if I change the Freedom of Assembly to the Freedom to Gather and keep the underlying legal protection is your right to assemble lost?

On a practical level it simplistic and easy.  The state stops issuing marriage licenses tomorrow and starts with only civil unions.  Any valid marriage license issued by the state before tomorrow is grandfathered in and treated as a civil union till they are phased out.

The problem isn't LGBT marriage, it is merely a symptom. It is a society that defines LGBT relationships as deviant and supports sexism and patriarchy as the norm.  I solve for that you don't.  

Check out my Oregon politics blog at Forward Oregon


[ Parent ]
on tax equity (0.00 / 0)
sorry, TJ, but the idea that Merkley would cancel out Wyden on tax equity is just silly.  whatever plan the Senate would manage to get to a vote -- and it would be compromised, of course, to get it past the wingers who would filibuster it to death -- would get the same support from Wyden, Merkley and Novick.  i'm supporting Steve, but i have no doubts about Merkley's commmitment to these issues.  saying he's be, in effect, a swap for Gordo is totally uncool.  

it's not just about the vote, it's about the advocacy (0.00 / 0)
I would like to elect a Senator who will be a passionate advocate of economic fairness. It is clear to me (based on his own words) that Steve Novick will be that passionate advocate. it is equally clear to me (also based on his own words) that Merkley would not.


[ Parent ]
Uncool but true (0.00 / 0)
on this issue, Merkley is to the right of his opponent, other OR House members, and the senior Senator. If a bill came up that equalized rates, wyden would vote yes and Merkley would vote no. That is exactly what cancelling out the vote entails.

Regardless, if you favor tax equity then Merkley is apparently not your guy.
(global you; not TA).


[ Parent ]
Not Really (0.00 / 0)
Torridjoe
With all due respect, I believe you're misreading the diary.  Nowhere, according to Portlandia's diary (which seems to be the blogging equivalent of hearsay), did Merkley say he was opposed to tax reform, more specifically rate equalization.  

He said he was 'comfortable with a difference in the rates'.  He didn't say he would be opposed; if we trust the diarist, he said he was 'comfortable'.  

Extrapolating that to presumed opposition on tax reform bills is disingenuous.

Voters should trust a record of public service over a second-hand account of some conversation at a party, especially if that conversation is complicated as it the one in the diary seems.



[ Parent ]
nice try (0.00 / 0)
Casting vague aspersions on the veracity in order to muddy the issue is a dodge. You cannot simultaneously find a gap reasonable AND unreasonable. If you think a gap is fair, then clearly not having a gap must be unfair, because the people advantaged by the gap are now penalized. If you think equality is needed, you thus cannot find a gap fair.

But hey, let's grant your perspective. We still have:

Steve Novick, avid supporter of tax equality
Jeff Merkley, OK with the current system, not likely to fight for change, might vote for it, might not

That means Novick has the more progressive position than Merkley. So does Ron Wyden. So does Peter DeFazio. So does John Edwards.

It's part of a developing pattern: Half-Loaf Jeff. Not marriage, but civil unions! Not tax equality, but reasonable gaps!



[ Parent ]
HEY! (0.00 / 0)
I'm not sure what the "blogging equivalent of hearsay" is, but it's definitely insulting.

And as I pointed out elsewhere, several of the commenters who have criticized my diary have direct access to Jeff Merkley and have presumably asked him if my report is inaccurate. None of them have said anything of the kind -- and you know they'd be all over me like a cheap suit if they could.


[ Parent ]
"the blogging equivalent of hearsay" (0.00 / 0)
...more like the blogging equivalent of a "diary."

[ Parent ]
Hearsay (0.00 / 0)
You seem to be unfamiliar with the term "hearsay".

It literally is something you did not directly hear someone say, as in "Bob told me that John said..." Whatever Bob told you would be hearsay.

What Portlandia recounted were words directly spoken to Portlandia by Jeff Merkley. That is not hearsay or the blogging equivalent thereof. You can certainly question the veracity of Portlandia's encounter, or the accuracy of the transcription, but it's the kind of evidence that would be admissible in a court, if Portlandia was to be brought in as a witness.

All of this hyperventilating about whether someone needs to identify themselves before talking to elected public officials who are looking for peoples' votes is just ridiculous. Politicians have been saying stupid things (and sometimes pearls of wisdom) to people for as long as there have been politicians. Would anyone from the Merkley camp be complaining if Portlandia had praised Jeff Merkley for the answer he gave? Is anyone upset because of the love poem to Ben Westlund on the front page of Blue Oregon?


[ Parent ]
Tax Fairness Record (0.00 / 0)
It could be that Portlandia's diary of her conversation with Jeff Merkley is bad, or selective, paraphrasing to benefit her favored candidate.  And certainly Torridjoe's blog about her conversation approaches hearsay by darrelplant's definition.

But let's take a look at Jeff Merkley's record and statements shows that he has a strong commitment to tax fairness:

From the November livechat:

"In addition to closing the corporate loopholes, those who make their living managing private equity funds, who are currently allowed to pay taxes on their salaries at a low capital gains rate, should pay the same rate as the rest of us."

From his talk with the Oregon AFL-CIO:

"Jeff will further fight to reform the tax code to stop companies from setting up tax shelters in Bermuda in order to avoid paying their fair share in taxes."

From his campaign campaign kickoff release:

"Oregon needs a new U.S. Senator who will bring a real passion to the job. A passion for tax fairness, public education and for helping ordinary, everyday Oregonians achieve their aspirations and make their dreams come true." (talking about himself, of course)

He also signed a petition against the repeal of the estate tax.

Obviously, he's committed himself to tax fairness.  And it seems the above quotes directly refute Portlandia's account of Jeff Merkley's position.

But here's his legislative record on Tax Fairness:

2007
-Killed over 6 bills that would have reduced or eliminated the capital gains tax in Oregon (HB 3423, HB 2690, HB 3425, HB 3192, HB 3373, HB 2807).  These votes keep capital gains taxes equal to earned income taxes.
-Voted Yes on HB 3252, which discloses tax benefits to low-paying companies
-Voted Yes on diverting the corporate kicker to the rainy-day fund

2005
-Voted against capital gains tax cut (HB 2232)
-Voted to increase corporate taxes (HB 2152)
-Voted to divert the kicker (HB 3216)

2003
-Supported Measure 30

2001
-Opposed Bush tax cut (HJM 28)
-Voted No on Corporate Income Tax Cut (HB 2281)
-Voted No on Capital Gains Tax Cut (SB 67)

And that doesn't even get to his staunch advocacy for economic justice in general, especially for working families.  He led the charge for payday lending reform in 2007 (HB 2871), and has made it one of his signature issues in the Senate run.

The headline on this article is misleading and disingenuous.  The is ample evidence of Jeff Merkley advocating for tax fairness.  And Jeff Merkley has taken the actions in the legislature to back that up.  

I would stop the smearfest now, torridjoe.



wrong question (0.00 / 0)
congratulations, you just spent a lot of time reframing the question from "tax equality" to "tax fairness" and preventing further cuts in the cap rate.

But on tax equality, he appears willing to do it for hedge fund managers specifically, but no one else.

The title is "No on income equality." If he thinks it's OK to have a gap, then he's a no on income equality--because voting no means it's not OK.

I love how quickly the ultra-defensive "smear" card comes out with so many Merkley supporters. Yes, I have smeared Jeff Merkley, by assessing his policy views! Portlandia should be ashamed for even asking. Better to assume that he was for marriage and tax equality.  


[ Parent ]
Right question, actually (0.00 / 0)
You, via Ptlndia, framed the whole post as tax fairness:

"Wait a minute--if we send Jeff Merkley to the Senate, is he going to cancel out Wyden on tax fairness?"

'Income equality' refers to communism.  I'm pretty sure that out of DeFazio, Wyden and Novick, none of them support out-and-out communistic income equality.  If they were communists, I bet they would be to the left of Jeff Merkley.

But that's not what you were talking about.  You're talking about the difference between Capital Gains tax rates and Earned Income tax rates.  Jeff Merkley has voted time and time again to keep these rates EQUIVALENT (ie, the Same) since 1999.  He had many opportunities to create the gap that you think he's comfortable with.  But guess what, he voted to keep them the same.

His platform for the Senate campaign indicates he'd work for the same thing at the federal level by eliminating fund managers' use of the capital gains rate and eliminating offshore writeoffs.  And if his legislative record is any indication, he'd work to create equity between capital gains rates and income tax rates.

You like argumentation.  But when confronted with evidence that refutes your argument, you move the goal posts, just so that you can save your smear-job and your face.  Confront the facts and accept them.  


[ Parent ]
Right question, actually (0.00 / 0)
You, via Ptlndia, framed the whole post as tax fairness:

"Wait a minute--if we send Jeff Merkley to the Senate, is he going to cancel out Wyden on tax fairness?"

'Income equality' refers to communism.  I'm pretty sure that out of DeFazio, Wyden and Novick, none of them support out-and-out communistic income equality.  If they were communists, I bet they would be to the left of Jeff Merkley.

But that's not what you were talking about.  You're talking about the difference between Capital Gains tax rates and Earned Income tax rates.  Jeff Merkley has voted time and time again to keep these rates EQUIVALENT (ie, the Same) since 1999.  He had many opportunities to create the gap that you think he's comfortable with.  But guess what, he voted to keep them the same.

His platform for the Senate campaign indicates he'd work for the same thing at the federal level by eliminating fund managers' use of the capital gains rate and eliminating offshore writeoffs.  And if his legislative record is any indication, he'd work to create equity between capital gains rates and income tax rates.

You like argumentation.  But when confronted with evidence that refutes your argument, you move the goal posts, just so that you can save your smear-job and your face.  Confront the facts and accept them.  


[ Parent ]
jackmurray has carefully omitted the actual issue I asked about (0.00 / 0)
You'll notice that I specifically mentioned that he offered up his position on the hedge fund managers and their faux "capital gains," but I told him that that wasn't what I was getting at. I asked about equalizing marginal rates for wages and capital gains, and he said he was OK with a "reasonable" difference between the two.

The hedge fund managers, estate tax, and offshore tax havens are the low hanging fruit. I didn't ask about those issues and so (except for the brief aside I mentioned) we did not discuss them. I think those other positions are terrific, even if they are the easier ones to embrace.

I reported the entire substance of our conversation, from beginning to end. You'll notice that no one representing Merkley's campaign has disputed that, or has disputed anything I said.


[ Parent ]
Comfortable does not equal outright opposition (0.00 / 0)
What I'm arguing is that your description of the conversation doesn't exclude his support for a proposal to equalize the two.  It also doesn't automatically mean that he supports a proposal to go even further in the opposite direction.  In fact, he's very likely to vote for such a proposal given his 100% record on keeping Oregon's capital gains rate equal with the earned income rate.

As others have said before me, past actions are the best predictor of future results.

And they're a much better indicator of a policy platform than a one-on-one discussion about the different ways to go about achieving tax fairness.


[ Parent ]
I want an advocate (0.00 / 0)
I can't predict the future so I don't know which legislation might come up for a vote in the future, and what sweeteners it might contain in addition to equalizing marginal federal tax rates on wages and capital gains. Merkley might vote for it, or he might not (since he is comfortable with a "reasonable" difference, and can't or won't say whether the current difference is "reasonable").

Steve Novick, on the other hand, is an ardent advocate of this kind of reform, which would go a long way toward creating a fairer income tax structure for working people. ALL Democrats should be equally ardent advocates of this reform. It's a damned shame that they're not. I want to vote for one who is.


[ Parent ]
Comfortable does not equal outright opposition (5.00 / 1)
What I'm arguing is that your description of the conversation doesn't exclude his support for a proposal to equalize the two.  It also doesn't automatically mean that he supports a proposal to go even further in the opposite direction.  In fact, he's very likely to vote for such a proposal given his 100% record on keeping Oregon's capital gains rate equal with the earned income rate.

As others have said before me, past actions are the best predictor of future results.

And they're a much better indicator of a policy platform than a one-on-one discussion about the different ways to go about achieving tax fairness.


[ Parent ]
double! (0.00 / 0)
sorry about the double posting...feel free to edit away the superfluous ones, of course.

[ Parent ]
Hearsay (0.00 / 0)
That's not my definition of hearsay. That's what hearsay is.

And no, a discussion of direct evidence (what Portlandia's account was) is not itself hearsay, any more than a discussion of a news account is hearsay.

If you don't know what words mean, then you just shouldn't use them.


[ Parent ]

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